003 - [Audio]

[angleofscience]

[Shortly after this, Jetfire has been attempting to distract himself, having gone to the library but that's not exactly working, and all he can come up with?]

A question, if you will; what would be the difference between science and magic?

[He has accepted the possibility of more-than-natural... or supernatural/divine events, if barely, but that acceptance still doesn't explain a general question of what 'magic' could be in relation to known and quantifiable science.]

... Also, Starscream. Do you... have a moment?

[He's not sure asking this - no matter how interested he is in the answers - will be sufficient distraction, so he'll just go to someone he knows is good at distraction (if only to have all attention on himself).]

Comments

[trollscream.livejournal.com]

All right, Jetfire. Who kicked your puppy?

[angleofscience]

... Kicked my... what? You know as well as I do I'm not in possession of a--- [Pause. That was just an expression, Jetfire realized, as he caught the reference.]

Mmm... Not so much kicked anything, but... Were the humans ever of the opinion of those of you who landed on Earth being nothing more than... non-sentient, spark-less drones? Automatons.

[Maybe it shouldn't matter what another species thought of them (especially considering the lack of respect for human life the Decepticons had...), but being considered less than he actually was was... unsettling.

He does his best to not let that be heard, however.]

[trollscream.livejournal.com]

Sure. There are always a few religious nutcases around who think that. But I never paid that close of attention to the opinions of humans.

[angleofscience]

No, I suppose you wouldn't...

I just didn't expect... I mean, I suppose it's understandable in a way; lacking other references and context, and with the greatest complexity perhaps being simple AI, assuming we are the same isn't unreasonable. Still.

[Just talking was actually helping him order his reaction, but that doesn't make him any less affected by it.]

[trollscream.livejournal.com]

What can I say? Humans are generally stupid.

[angleofscience]

Starscream. [Okay, you can't see it, but he totally dragged a hand down his faceplates.]

Ignorance, especially unknowing such, isn't stupidity. [A pause.]

Thank you, though.

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[thii2ii22tupiid]

what fuel2 iit, ii thiink.

audio

[angleofscience]

[... It takes a moment to figure out what is going on here (by a moment, we mean less than a second of processing the text) and making Jetfire able to reply. he's still confused, however. He's only just learned English, here.]

Fuels it? Hmm... different sources of energy? [He's not actually sure what those who think magic exist considers magic, but energy, being not necessarily easily visible, is the closest he can think of. But energy, however, still has a place in the natural world.]

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[thii2ii22tupiid]

2omethiing liike that, ii'm not really 2ure how iit work2, there wa2 no magiic iin my uniiver2e but there ii2 iin 2ome other2.

audio

[angleofscience]

As far as I'm aware... barring a particular instance or two, neither in mine.

[Is divine intervention and a mech seemingly powered beyond normal limits and possibilities the same as magic?]

Maybe it'll simply be impossible to answer correctly as the difference will lie in whether magic does exist in any given reality and the origins of it, as well as how it works, will differ between any reality with magic... Which are all obsolete when it comes to those that do not contain anything that could be considered 'magic'.

[He's only partially talking directly to you right now, Sollux. More like thinking out loud, but if you find it interesting...]

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[thii2ii22tupiid]

*Who knows? A lot of the tech and normal stuff Sollux is used to would be considered magic to other cultures. Especially when you get to the omnipotent guardians or the whole seeing the future thing.*

iif there are iinfiinate uniiver2e2 out there, then 2ome where magiic AND 2ciience exii2t mu2t be po22ible, that may be the only way to truely tell the diiference between the two.
what pa22e2 a2 magiic iin IB's uniiver2e miight not be magiic iin keva2'2 or anyone el2e'2, or "magiic" may ju2t be a word u2ed when guardiian2 or god2, or 2omethiing people don't know and/or under2tand at all, are behiind iit.

*That's alright, Jetfire, it gives Sollux something to think about.*

[Audio]

[cellwave.livejournal.com]

Understanding.

[Audio]

[angleofscience]

... You're going to have to elaborate. While I think I'd agree that in most cases, 'magic' would be turning out to be 'science' as soon as it's understood... Can it be assumed to be that simple if there's more than one reality?

[Audio]

[cellwave.livejournal.com]

I'd like to think so. For it to really be 'magic, it has to be completely unexplained, right? So there can't be triggers for it, because those are a condition for it to happen, and if there are conditions there's a bigger equation that needs to be complete to cause the magic, so it would no longer be 'magic'. And it can't be drawing its power from anywhere, because then they're just borrowing something else's abilities, and that's an explanation too.

So if real magic exists, there are no conditions to control it and no power source to limit it, so that reality wouldn't last long, would it?

I think for any reality to use 'magic' practically, there would have to be rules and restrictions on it, and if there are rules and restrictions, it can be pinned down and explained. That's all.

[Audio]

[angleofscience]

Mmm... Yes, or it would simply be impossible to control it. While I technically see nothing wrong with naming a particular system of... hm, energy manipulation 'magic', it would then simply be another sort of science, with, as you say, conditions, rules, an origin of the energy used to power, laws of entropy, energy-transfer...

[Helpful, even if this doesn't make him more or less decided on the reality of "magic" as such, but the question had been open for a reason.]

Thank you.

[abstinentzombie]

Science is the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. And it just makes sense.

[Why yes, she does have the definition memorized. Scientist 101.]

Magic, from what I've seen of it, involves a lot of hand waving and making things spontaneously occur in ways I can't make any damn sense of. But somehow it can make an entire sun disappear and still provide a life-sustaining light and heat source.

I've just decided to accept the crazy and take it as it is.

[angleofscience]

[The definition, even if his reaction can't be seen, has him smiling slightly.]

Well, while I am doubtful magic has been used to make the sun appear as if it's not present... A cloaking device in conjunction with an energy field would effectively create a limited space and at the same time make it seem as if there is no sun, while retaining the effects of one.

[Because there is some sort of ceiling... and probably walls. He hit his helm on it when flying.]

[abstinentzombie]

[You lost her at "cloaking device".]

...Energy field?

[angleofscience]

... Hmm. [Okay, apparently using those terms and concepts wasn't as clear-cut as he'd thought.]

Consider a device or machine that has has enough power-output that the energy produced can, between set points, create a wall... or dome, separating what's within or without.

I suppose the easiest would be one such thing created with electricity, without leading said electricity through wires or metal, it being strong enough to be kept in place by two or more separate anchors, placed at the desired distance from each other.

[There's a pause as he thinks about this.]

I assume for a human, or most organic beings, unless protected, such a high concentration of power that an electric field would need would be quite... detrimental.

[abstinentzombie]

...Interesting.

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<i[would>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

...Interesting.

<i[Would be nice protection against zombies.]</i>

[heavyweaponsbot]

One exists.

The other is just stupid.

[angleofscience]

I suppose that's... one way of thinking of it.

[He isn't laughing. Nope. Not at all. Jetfire certainly understands the sentiment; it's one he'd prefer to cling to, but a few unexplainable things have been happening in his own universe, and a good scientist ask questions and look for explanations.]

At least science does us the favour of being easily observable and tested.

[heavyweaponsbot]

Yeah. It is.

[After all that time on the Elegante, someone has a reasonably jaded view on 'magic'.]

... Now you sound like someone I know.

[angleofscience]

[Jetfire would prefer "magic", unless reasonably rule-defined and following laws of entropy etc, didn't exist at all. But he knows there's more, sometimes, than can be immediately explained. Unfortunately.]

Should I apologize? [There's a brief chuckle; someone else had said he'd reminded them of someone too, after all, but this being a fellow Cybertronian (no matter the different universes), it was a bit closer to home, so to speak.]

Who, if I may ask?

[heavyweaponsbot]

[After the Elegante, Ironhide would be a fool to not admit there was more out there than just science and logic. But he doesn't have to like admitting that.]

Not your fault.

[He hesitates.]

... Ratchet. Old friend of mine.